Mary Bauermeister
Interviewer: Juan Xu ( Bald Girls Curator)
Interviewee: Mary Bauermeister: (the Feminist Pioneer of Fluxus Movement)
Time: Oct. 6, 2012
Location: Mary Bauermeister’s workshop (in Rothrat, Cologne)
1. Introduction: On March 3, 2012 the first feminist art exhibition in China was held at Iberia Center for Contemporary Art, drawing lots of attention from the art and culture community. The New York times, The Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, ArtChina,Southern People Weekly, among others, have given extensive coverage of this exhibition titled “The Bald girl”. It also triggered debates on the Internet. These debates, as a matter of fact, have greatly promoted women’s right and feminist art among the public. (see ArtChina)
The debate and strong reaction to the exhibition have led the Chinese society to pay more attention to women’s rights as part of human rights. To turn the “bald girl” spirit into a sustainable platform for exchange in feminist art in China and facilitate the communication and interaction with feminist artists across the world while continuing to enhance the localization of feminism and, “The Bald Girl” is going to join hands with artists from South America at a dialogue exhibition in Bogota, Colombia. In the meantime, a forum on avant-garde contemporary feminist art will be held in partnership with Taikang Space in Beijing, aiming to add a new dimension to the exhibition: spiritual homeland of Chinese feminism.
“The Bald Girl” will hold a forum jointly with “Taikang Space” in Beijing on March 3 every year. These forums will enhance the communication with world-renowned artists, highlight the site effect and spatial effect, explore the pioneering spirit and contemporaneity of feminist art, and introduce to the Chinese public outstanding women artists in the world. These activities will be characterized with diversity, unconventionality, detextualization, experimentality, site-effect and sustainability.
Brief introduction to Mary Bauermeister:
Mary Bauermeister was born in Frankfurt am Main to a professor of genetics and anthropology on September 7, 1934. From 1954 to 1956 she studied at the State School of Art and Design in Saarbrücken. In 1956 she became a freelance artist. After returning to Cologne from Paris, she started “Atelier Mary Bauermeister” at Lintgasse 28t. From March, 1960, she regularly hosted concerts, exhibitions and performance art activities. These cross-media cultural activities paved the way for Fluxus Movement, which contributed greatly to contemporary art. At her invitation, a lot of avant-garde poets, composers and visual artists became regular visitors to the atelier, like George Maciunas, Joseph Beuys, Wolf Vostell, Hans G Helms, David Tudor, John Cage, a pioneer of contemporary art, Christo, George Brecht, Nam June Paik and many others who, unknown by then, could realize their visions on art in these “queer” concerts of “newest music”, readings, performance art exhibitions in this hotbed of their dream of art.
In 1961 Mary Bauermeister attended the course in composition by Karlheinz Stockhausen, a well-known avant-garde musician, at the Summer Courses for New Music in Darmstadt. Later she became his second wife. In 1962 Bauermeister and Stockhausen collaborated for the first time as couple at an exhibition in Stedelijk Museum Amsterdam. In the same year she moved to New York. In the 1960s she was frequently seen at Bonino Gallery in the 57th street discussing with here friends, like Pop artists, neo-realist artists and Fluxus artists, including Jasper Johns, Robert Rauschenberg, Niki DE Saint Phale, Jean Tinguely, etc. Her art reached its climax during her stay in New York.
In the 1970s, Mary Bauermeister returned to Germany and began to devote to marginal science. Her outdoor workshop in the suburbs of Cologne has become a hub of communication for artists across the world. On the occasion of her 70th birthday the Cologne Museum Ludwig collected her 1963 wall installation Needless Needles and set aside a permanent space for her works.
As the first female artist who has created a platform for the Fluxus Art Movement, Mary Bauermeister is a legendary figure in every sense. In addition, her marriage with Stockhausen, her taking care of the mentally retarded children, and setting up the art commune all distinguishes her as a pioneer in contemporary feminist art and feminism.
2. Interview with Mary Bauermeister
Bald: “The Bald Girls” invited you to introduce your art and concepts at the forum in Beijing about avant-garde feminist art on March 3, 2013. In the early 1960s, as we know, you held seminal concerts, exhibitions and performance art. Would you please tell us how you got the idea? What was the general atmosphere of art like in Germany then?
Bauermeister: There are albums about this period. Lots of artists, from different countries gathered here, like John cage, Nam June Paik, Christo, etc. Contemporary art had been demonized by the Nazis as “decadent art” for as long as 12 years. The 1960s marked the beginning of a new era. We followed closely contemporary music and explored new forms of expression in contemporary art. I myself was more eager to know everything that was prohibited — driven by the sense of urgency one had when lots of classes were missed. Moreover I suffered from hearing loss since childhood, a physical defect that gave me a very special kind of “synesthesia”. I was able to listen to paintings, watch music, and blend different art forms. I’m always against the practice of classifying artists into poets, musicians, painters, etc. Talent and interest vary, I admit, but it doesn’t mean that creativity is concentrated on one aspect only. I have always dreamed of working with all creators of art to break the boundary, so that poets, painters and musicians can work on the same stage and create a new form of art. Today I would even include into art people in architecture, forestry, agriculture, and even nature. Those days I just concentrated on mainstream art.
Bald: Quantum mechanics was included in art at Documenta in Kassel, wasn’t it? Breaking the boundaries of art is the starting point of the Fluxus, isn’t it? There is no distinction of visual art, poems or music, as they mix in your art. Can we say that it was the inspiration of Fluxus? So you are the“mother”of Fluxus, aren’t you?
Bauermeister: Exactly. Fluxus didn’t make its public appearance until some time later. Most Fluxus artists get to know one another through music, like Nam June Paik, John cage, Ben Patterson… Later, Nam June Paik shifted to video, and Patterson to installation. To Fluxus, I’m not the mother, but the “grandmother”, they say.
Bald: There is not much introduction to the Fluxus in China, so it is new to our artists. As one of the founders of the Fluxus, could you say something about how it was started?
Bauermeister: Talking about the birth of Fluxus, we have to go back to its cradle, Cabaret Voltaire in Zurich, where Dadaism was born. In the early 20th century, soon after the end of WWI, artists from European countries gathered at Cabaret Voltaire to talk about the future and the destiny of Europe. They reflected on the trauma of the war and reached agreement to oppose nationalist culture. Dadaists advocated borderless free art.
Bald: So can we say Fluxus is “Neo-Dada”?
Bauermeister: “Neo-Dada”, they claimed to be as well. Like Dada, Fluxus is a conservative kind of anarchism, in opposition to the existing discourse system. It questions all existing aesthetics and social values, challenges all orthodox “correctness” and “beauty”, and refuse to accept any established aesthetic and social norms, including the principles as to what is “truth” and what is not.
Bald: Why is it called Fluxus? What is its core?
Bauermeister: Fluxus means flow. In reaction against any rigid and established thinking and structure, it is an anarchist trend in art. In the reconstruction period after WWII, Germany was rather conservative and orderly. Everybody was thinking about how to build a house and get some land. The essence of art, in such a conservative and rigid context, is to turn the order into “confusion”, and invigorate it. On the contrary, when society is in chaos and out of order, it is the artist’s duty to bring order to “confusion” and find structure and framework for it. Fluxus refuses to treat artworks as “sacred” objects for worship. Rather art is “action” not still life, always in movement, like a running river. It also prefers ideas to material, in other words, artworks should not be “expensive” so that anyone can afford. It calls for a tolerant and flexible society.
Bald: We found that “Dada” is more pessimistic than Fluxus. After WWI, there was a widespread sense of absurdity and uncertainty among young “dadaists”. They are pessimistic and desperate. Contrary to these dadaists, the Fluxus artists seemed quite light-hearted and cheerful. Does it have anything to do with the arrival of the consumption era in the 1960s?
Bauermeister: Let me say something here. Lots of artists, to be exact, a lot of good artists, were killed in the terrible and bloody WWI. The Fluxus Movement in Europe did have some bearing on the war. It challenged all the postwar values. Fluxus artists in America differed a lot from their European colleagues. Having never experienced a war on its territory, American artists found it difficult to share the pain caused by the war that Asians and Europeans suffered, and the American Fluxus and Europe had different historical background. European Fluxus artists were mostly deep and unrevealing, while the American ones cheerful and shallow. The American ones were like care-free children, spreading the light-hearted mood to Europe as well. Many European artists combine the “light” United States with the “heavy” Europe, forming therefore a very unique European Fluxus, featuring the blending of the “heavy” and the “light”.
Bald: Maciunas, the originator of Fluxus, is really a genius. He named the movement “Fluxus”. I hear some artists said that he was very authoritative. Is it true?
Bauermeister: More than authoritative. He is nothing short of a tyrant. He considered himself an emperor, deciding which artists can attend Fluxus and which not. Any artist who refused to follow his arrangement would be counted out. He was a very good organizer and strategist, but very serious and opinionated, already ready to turn down others. “Disagreement”, you know, does produce negative energy, while “agreement” builds positive energy. I was in America during his active years in Europe.
Bald: Do you know Beuys quite well?
Bauermeister: I know him, but it was after I came back from the US. I got back to Germany from New York in 1972.
Bald: How is he related to Fluxus? He seemed to be on the border of Fluxus.
Bauermeister: How can Beuys be on the border? He is a very important artist in our age, more important than Fluxus. Part of his activities is connected with the Fluxus. Fluxus has borrowed a lot from Cage and Duchamp, so it is not as creative as Beuys. In 1973 Beuys and Nam June Paik presented a very important performance work “Concert” in Wuppertaler, in which a piano was smashed. It is one of his crucial collaborations with Fluxus.
Bald: Do you know a lot about Cage?
Bauermeister: We got to know at my studio in Cologne.
Bald: He is one of Stockhausen’s students?
Bauermeister: No. He was older than Stockhausen . He was one of Schönberg’s students, who taught back then at Black Mountain College in New York. After the war, Schönberg gathered almost all the avant-garde artists of that time, including a number of Russian avant-garde artists like Kandinsky. Cage invented the prepared piano and was a forerunner in contemporary art. In 1958 he gave a report “The Inherent Structure of Art” in Darmstadt, a real eye-opener for Nam June Paik and other artists. His concert in Cologne however was not very successful. What happened to Cage told me that I should have a platform of my own, so I decided to offer my studio in cologne as a platform to those avant-garde artists who were considered unorthodox. Then came Nam June Paik, followed by American artists. My studio in cologne did become a legend.
Bald: Stockhausen was recognized then as a representative of avant-garde music, but Cage was not. Why?
Bauermeister: Stockhausen was a musician in every sense of the word, a pioneer of electronic music. By contrast, Cage was in the first place a philosopher who approached music with his intellect first. Stockhausen gave expression to music through his instinct whereas Cage’s music was generally hard to understand. But Cage was a very humorous man, a pacifist.
Bald: Then a question about Nam June Paik, who was neither American nor German. Were people reluctant to accept him because he was from Asia?
Bauermeister: No, at least among artists and in my studio. He was just one of us, and everyone liked him. We were all very curious and open to new things and cultures. We two discussed various topics like “Zen”. He studied philosophy and music. He was a thinker, the first thinker from the East I have in close contact with. I got lots of inspiration from him. It was then that I began to think about European binary oppositions.
Bald: Nam June Paik wasn’t a typical Asian. He studied Western philosophy, Western music, and he came to Munich to follow Schönberg.
Bauermeister: Yes. Lots of music he produced was avant-garde, absolutely far from traditional. But we believed he represented Asian culture. After arriving in Germany, he did not follow Schönberg but chose to learn electronic music from Stockhausen. In the end he left music and became the founder of video art.
Bald: What role does music play in your art? You and your husband Stockhausen, a musician and a plastic artist. How did you work together?
Bauermeister: It was fairly simple when I worked mainly on sketches in the beginning. And then conflicts arrived. Generally I can say, his music influenced me, and my intuition influenced and inspired him. His idea and abstract thinking gave me order and structure.
Bald: Where did your inspiration come?
Bauermeister: From nature and the optimism I was born with. I tried to experiment in my art the combination of our natural quality as human being and the cosmic tension, and I believed it could be successful. Instead of saying I am a body with a mind, I would say I am a mind with a body. I liked nature and the fragrance of the earth. The earth gives me an outlet for my spirit. My art is not about drawing hell but about highlighting humanity, love, and the possibility of life. To me, the experience of life is much more important than the binary opposition of right and wrong.
Bald: Does your career consists of several periods like that of Picasso’s? “Lens Boxes” is one of your representative works and the Sicilian blanket. What was your new direction when you got back to Germany?
Bauermeister: after returning to Germany in the 1970s, Bauermeister: Back to Germany in the 1970s, I was devote to Land Art that integrated natural landscape into art. I built a number of “Zen” gardens for Britain, New Zealand and other countries.
Bald: Do you consider yourself a feminist artist?
Bauermeister: I won’t hesitate to admit that I am one if it is about fighting for women’s rights, but I’m not against men. Women ought to unite with men to speak for women and do things for them, instead of dwelling on the simple binary opposition of women against men. Women’s liberation has not really started, I think. Rosa Luxemburg sacrificed her life for women’s social equality. After the war, women have been trying to prove that they can do what men can. But it is far from their real liberation, in which men will prove that they can do what women can, like showing their emotions in public, affinity and collectivism that are unique to women. They should also liberate themselves from the “capable and aggressive” role our society imposes on them. My son-in-law is a good example: he took care of the children and the family, shares family responsibilities, and shows respect to women.
Bald: Those years saw the boom of feminist art. Did you take part in the feminist art activities then?
Bauermeister: In the hey days of German feminist art, I was in the US. American feminism those days was a bit one-sided with a religious touch of exclusion. In particular, their emphasis on homosexual was hard for me to accept. I really admire阿里斯· 斯娃兹, a leader of feminist movement in Germany, for her effort to fight for women’s right and contribution to social equality. Even in today’s Germany, it is still not free of discrimination based on sex. We have a long way to go before we can finally achieve gender equality and equal pay for equal work.
Bald: As a woman, did you have difficulty in winning acceptance and earning recognition? Did those male artists take your work seriously?
Bauermeister: It was not easy to win acceptance. Neither my early works of stones nor later ones inspired by blanket-making in Sicily were well-received. They were dismissed as women’s “stuff” with little artistic value. It was my music that gave me access to the museums in the Netherlands. My music got me a chance to show my paintings and visual works. In American I did not have so many ups and downs. Prior to the feminist movement in the 1970s, qualified women artists did not have much difficulty in earning credit— everything changed after the feminist movement. There were too many labels for feminist artists.
Bald: In 1962 you moved to New York, a dynamic center for contemporary art. There you were well-received. What was art like in New York at that time? Could you say something about the differences between New York and Germany in art?
Bauermeister: America is unique, but New York is not very American, as you can find the world is there. People of all races, more than 300 cultures, gather in such a small place. In New York lot of intellectuals, artists, and hippies are Jewish immigrants, who stood in stark contrast to the mainstream American culture. Only in New York can we see the intellectual heritage, very European. In America, Art and culture live on private fund, but in Germany it was the country that pays.
Bald: What are the strengths and weaknesses of these two cultures?
Bauermeister: What is good about the American capitalism is that women do not met much resistance to be accepted and men and women are relatively equal. In a traditional agricultural society, it is quite natural for women to marry and give birth. In America, women can inherit property. What is not so good about the American capitalism is that one has to cater to the public. Here the problem is in that case we are too close to the pubic and culture becomes entertainment. Of course it involves some humor, but entertainment is not all that bad. Unless we take ourselves too seriously, we will not go to extremes. Fluxus brought the entertainment into art.
Bald: Why did you return to Germany in the 1970s?
Bauermeister: For one thing, I did not want to see my children grow in an English-speaking environment. Language is the carrier of culture. Many of my predecessors were writers and poets. I am also quite sensitive about language, not wanting to talk to my children in American English. For another, I was aware of how capitalism operated in the American art market. The American art market, like the Mafia, often manipulates market prices, so the price had little to do with the quality of the art. In the United States, with gallerists pressing, I did not have enough time for my work, and the quality went down. I would not have resisted the temptation of capitalism if I had not left.
Bald: Your outdoor studio near Cologne has become a platform for artists across the world to communicate. Could you tell us something about it here?
Bauermeister: The first Sunday every month my studio is open to the public, offering also a free lunch. We have kept this practice for over ten years. Artists from all over the world can hold concerts, readings and art exhibitions here. Most of the visitors, however, are from around Cologne. I never advertise. People get to know it through word of mouth. I just want to express as an artist that I can live on art. It’s a kind of cultural sponsorship. Visitors can enjoy music they have never heard, and see images they have never seen. I also set aside an outdoor workshop for art exchange and creation activities in summer. I care about art, and I am also interested in dialogues between art activities and society, especially the aesthetic education for the next generation, with the hope that those children can leave their computer to engage in some creation activities.
Bald: Good idea. Our project in China can be called “Art ·action · women’s right”s. Many Thanks!
